Talk of Tigers
(Written March 9, 1990)
“Tell me about your tiger,” she said. They were at the zoo, standing in front of the tiger cage. A huge, restless Bengal tiger paced back and forth the length of the cage. His eyes looked devoid of life, cold, neutral. The huge paws silently padded up and down, the tawny skin rippling over muscles bunching and loosening as he walked, endlessly pacing. There was about him an ominous presence, a sense of unbelievable power and force, frightening, even with the steel bars separating him from outsiders.
“OK,” he replied. “I guess to do that the best way to start is to tell you about this dream I had. In the dream I was walking down a road with a friend, and I was taking her to see my house. I wanted to show her all the beautiful new rooms I was discovering in my house. We opened the front door and went inside, and as we closed the door behind us, I knew there was something in there with us.” He stopped, paused, took a deep breath. “We began walking through the house, with me pointing out all the neat rooms and nice features. Suddenly there was a tiger with us, walking next to us. My friend was, of course, very frightened. I assured her It was a tame tiger, that I knew it, and that it wouldn’t hurt us. Then it grabbed my arm in its mouth. I could feel the tremendous power of its jaws, even though it wasn’t biting hard – just playing almost. Then I knew the tiger was not tame, I had been fooling myself. I could not control it, and sooner or later it would destroy me, and any of my friends who might be around. I got scared, and the dream ended.”
“Boy,” she gasped, “that’s pretty powerful. So what does the dream mean to you?”
“The house, of course, is me – the inside of me. It has many wonderful parts – rooms – to it, a lot of which I’m just now discovering. The tiger was my rage. Something terrible because it was uncontrollable, capable of destroying the house – me – and anyone who came close to me.”
The tiger continued to pace as they watched in silence for a few minutes.
“What was it about tigers that scared you most?”
“I think it was that they are so compassionless. They kill for food with no thought of the prey, no remorse. It’s almost like a need to hurt.”
“Wow! That’s pretty intense.”
“Yeah. Also, they have great self control in their stalking, but once they go for the kill they are merciless. And they live so much of their life alone, roaming, seeking the kill. I didn’t want to live my life that way. But there was a part of me that understood that. It scared me so much, I kept it hidden – even from myself a lot of the time.”
“That’s pretty scary. But – I’ve never seen you like that.”
“You see. I kept it that well hidden. But it was there. Some people have seen it.”
“How in the world did you get like that?”
“I guess you could say it was an inheritance. From being raised by a brutal Ex-Marine who let his tiger act out on a twelve year old boy. Like his Dad did to him.” The tiger continued to pace.
“So what did you do about it?” she asked.
He was quiet for a long time. “For me, learning about the tiger was a sort of revelation. I didn’t know he was inside me. But overcoming the tiger was a process, a journey if you will. It started the way much of my journey started, with the First Step.”
“You mean The First Step?”
“You got it. Powerlessness. As long as I tried to fight the tiger on my own, I lost – it was too powerful, too destructive. It was as I worked The Steps on my rage that I began to be able to conquer it.” He stopped and reflected for a moment, then spoke again very deliberately. “There is some more to it than that – some specific things that happened. But they’re still very private for me. I don’t share them with people. It’s like, it’s just between me and God. I guess the best I can say is – do you believe in miracles?”
“Yes, I can accept that,” she replied. They turned and walked away. The tiger, at long last winded and tired, had finally laid down to rest.
——-
10-28-09 I’m finally about ready to talk about the things that were still very private at the time the above piece was written. The miracles and the events of confronting my rage. It will be the topic of a book, “The Tiger Unveiled,” that I have laid out, but not finished. Below is the pivotal event that made me face the tiger within me.
The Tiger Unveiled – You Got The Wrong Guy!
As we sat down at the Denny’s restaurant, what went through my mind was, “Oh, my God, this feels like an Intervention.” There were six of them, and one of me. They had gotten me out of bed that night – woke me up late – and said they wanted to buy me dinner. From the moment I opened the door to my apartment, my intuition screamed that something was wrong. The people who came to my door didn’t fit together – some of them didn’t even like each other. And they wanted to buy me dinner? This late? They told me they wanted to confront my pattern of backing away from people. Even though it didn’t make sense why this had to be done “right now,” I went along with them – because I trusted them, gave power to their words – in a sense because they were family.
I had seen these people earlier in the evening at a party. I had been in a lot of pain – because of grief over my Dad’s death, but also the pain of knowing that I must move on from some of these people. I loved them dearly, but I had to detach from them, for my own well being, to save myself. So when it got too emotionally crowded at the party, I went home.
Now as I sat in the middle of the long oval table, surrounded by these people – trapped in a sense, because I was sitting on the inside of the booth – my thought was: listen to what they have to say. Give them the benefit of the doubt – don’t get angry and get up and leave. Trust them. They began talking about how they had seen my pattern of backing away from people. That felt strange. Couldn’t that have waited until tomorrow? They said they were doing this out of love. As I looked at them, they looked frightened, agitated – some looked like they were in an altered state. They made statements that sounded reasonable, but in some way sounded angry.
The things they said about me could have been true about them as well. It sounded like they were describing themselves, but they were saying it was about me.
Then they started talking about suicide – how they feared I was about to kill myself. What? That’s not why they said they needed to talk to me. Where had talk of suicide come from? One person did most of the talking about suicide, the others just nodded in support, which hurt just as bad.
Their words grew more hurtful, more demanding. I grew – confused. For years these people had been praising my growth toward health – now they were saying I was sick. They were accusing me of things, diagnosing me – telling me how in distress I was. Some of them grew more angry, more insistent. It continued. They used a lot of “should” statements. Nothing I was doing was good enough, or right enough.
I tried to explain, to tell them I knew what was going on with me, that I was talking with people about my situation. I tried to tell them that they were discussing things that should be addressed with each person privately. They went on. As I looked at each person, I could see that they doubted – no, they had decided – not to believe me. It hurt, and I emotionally closed up. I began to feel the unreality, the insanity of it. I had been condemned before they got there – they wouldn’t believe me.
I was alone – against 6 people. The weight of numbers bore down on me. It was crushing, and I grew numb. They mentioned love again and took me home. The reason I knew I wasn’t suicidal – after that attack, I didn’t go home and kill myself.
Several days later, I found out the truth about how this had all come about. A group had formed at the party, and the rumor began to spread that Dan was home about to commit suicide. I was humiliated to hear that. I heard about “secret meetings,” and “mass hysteria.” Several people “encouraged them to wait.” Someone I had been talking to, who knew what was going on with me – was told they could not go, because there were “already too many people going.” My one advocate – denied access.
They became convinced they needed to save me, so they came after me. When I heard details, I grew angry, very angry. I felt my tiger, my rage. I knew my rage was primarily tied to my Dad, but it scared me deeply, because now there was an immediate target for the rage – that group of people. Something had to be done.
—-
The event at Denny’s was one of the most hideous experiences of my life. Yet I would later refer to it as one of the greatest blessings I’d ever received. It forced me to confront and deal with my anger and rage. But I was committed not to hurt anyone. I ended up signing before 2 witnesses, very solemnly, an Anger Contract that that stayed in effect for 2 years, as to how I would not act out my anger on someone else. I also committed to actively to release that anger in safe ways. It worked! That was the great blessing of the event at Denny’s.
Powerful story. In my own experience, I know that if I fight too hard to hide something, eventually it bursts out uncontrollably. But when I'm willing to surrender it, admit it, free it from its dark cage of secrecy and shame, I'm able to move on much more quickly.
Thanks for your support and kind words at Twitter and my blog. I appreciated that, Dan. This would be another great post for the blog carnival, if you're interested. I'm hosting at my blog this time, for World Day for the Prevention of Child Abuse, whish is Thursday.
Dan, Thanks for talking about the subject of anger in a unique way. I have problems with anger popping up when I'm triggered. I don't always know what will trigger me. If I did I might have a better grip on overcoming it. I also have a blog on this hosting site. http://sojourner-chroniclesofasojourner.blogspot.com
It’s interesting to me that I somehow “missed” this entry yesterday when I was looking around here for the first time. “Tiger” is a strong symbol in my own journey – something that comes up again and again in memories. I had a stuffed tiger, when I was two, which was my constant companion. I have written about this in my blog. In addition, the story “The Lady or the Tiger” has symbolized my father in many ways. I have written about that, on my blog, as well.
Quite recently, I realized the story – the lady or the tiger -also symbolized me. The interesting thing is that as I came to understand that, I came to a much different conclusion about what the tiger meant than you did here.
You have a wonderful way of expressing your journey.
Shen – Wow – so you have had a tiger symbol in your journey as well? That is amazing! Thanks for sharing that with me. It is interesting that our tigers came to symbolize such different things for us. Mine was a deadly killer. Your tiger – especially the stuffed tiger – for some reason brings to mind Tigger from the Winnie the Pooh series – a very warm, fluffy, safe animal! I was vaguely familiar with the “Lady or the Tiger” story, so I went and read your blog post on it. Boy – talk about deep and complex symbolisms and quandaries – there are no simple answers and no good solutions. So I can definitely see how that would elicit much of how you felt about your father. The other thought was – what a totally weird story to tell a child! Instead of Winnie the Pooh, you have deep and complex control issues, subtle messages about possession and ownership, lose/lose situations, and extreme violence! Dang! That’s not Nancy Drew!
Isn’t it amazing how animal images populate our childhood and carry such weight into adulthood!
Thanks for sharing your perspectives on this with me!
Warmly,
Dan
Thanks for coming by my blog.
Happy Chinese New Year – it is officially the year of the tiger, today!
You’re welcome – glad to get to know more about you through your blog! Happy Chinese New Year to you as well! Yes, the tiger pops up again. I was born in 1950, which meant I thought that I was born in the Year of the Tiger – which made perfect sense. Then a fussy friend said that my birthday was before the start of the year, so I was actually born in the Year of the Ox. It doesn’t feel nearly as suitable – I wish she hadn’t told me! 🙂
lol, well I was born in ’59 -the year of the pig. I think you should be happy with the ox. hah!
LOL! Isn’t that the way! It’s all relative, I guess! 🙂
I was born in 1951 which is the Chinese Year of the Rabbit. Your story about the meaning of the tiger for you feels very right to me. I have never understood what my tiger dream was about. I always woke up terrified. I had my tiger dreams for many years until sometime after I had been in Al-Anon, Adult Children of Alcoholics programs and counseling. I couldn’t tell you when the dreams stopped. Even though I haven’t had the dream in years, I can still “see” it so clearly in my mind. This dream always happened in the same house that my grandmother lived in when I was 7 years old. She only lived in that house for a year. Your interpretation of your dream has given me a lot to think about and figure out. Thanks for that.
Only in my dreams was I frightened by tigers. Tigers have always been one of my favorite animals. They are powerful and fearless. To me, they are the most beautiful creature that God created. I know lions are the king of the jungle but to me, tigers were always much more majestic and larger than life. The tiger is one of my animal totems.
Patricia – Oh wow, you’re bringing up much more to talk about for us! 🙂 “Dream always happened in the same house my grandmother lived in when I was 7 years old!” Amazing – the last two years I’ve been working on a writer’s block that originated in my grandmother’s house when I was 8! (See my blog post on “And Then I Stop.” It will be my next book. Astounding to hear your dream took place in a similar setting! The tiger as rage – I finally figured out that rage – for me – is not about anger. It is about fear combined with shame – it is a blue, soulless, cold emotion. Hence the cold killer of the tiger. Why I’ve been trying to shift from that to the warm energy of the lion – same power, but used with restraint, and a family creature! Any wonder that Aslan from the Chronicles of Narnia ends up in some of my writings? Particularly a healing exercise where I envision bulldozing grandma’s house, like Forrest Gump did to Jennie’s house of pain. So that warm energy doesn’t wish to hurt, but has great boundaries. Sorry – you’ve gotten me connecting the dots, and it’s amazing!
Interestingly, I thought I was born in the year of the tiger – but one of my friends pointed out that I was born before the year of the Tiger started, and actually was in the year of the Ox. I like it year of the tiger better – it suits me! Watching the tiger at the zoo, there was such wonderful dignity in the power – he knew he had it, and didn’t have to show us – we could just feel it!
Great talk, Patricia!
You have given me some things to think about too.
I hear you on “things to think about” – like walking away from a great meeting, huh?
Dan, I just a short time ago posted about my Tiger dream on my blog. You will find it at the following link:
http://patriciasingleton.blogspot.com/2010/03/dreams-about-tigers-what-they-mean-to.html
Let me know what you think.
Patricia –
WOW! Now that’s what I call feedback! I just posted your post on Twitter and my Facebook page because I was so impressed. I hear you putting pieces of your story together after watching the video and reading the blog piece. Patricia, this is the most remarkable feedback I have ever gotten with respect to what I am sharing! I am overwhelmed, amazed, humbled, and in awe! I feel so connected to you. I had wondered about the grandmother’s house connection, since you first had the dream there when you were 7. So remarkably similar to my experience at age 8, that it just seemed likely that there was a connection! It will be interesting to hear how your story unfolds!
Thank you!!
Dan
Thank you for posting my article on Twitter and Facebook. I appreciate the links. I have a Twitter account but it said I was banned from Twitter recently when I tried to post an answer on another friends account. I haven’t used my Twitter account before so I don’t understand why I am banned for strange activity. I am waiting to hear back from someone at Twitter.
I visited your Facebook page and posted a message saying thank you unless I pushed the wrong button. I didn’t see it show up on your Facebook
I feel the connection too. I did a Google search on you this morning before writing my article and found your stuff on RadioKevin which I am looking forward to listening to. I also want to order your first book and can hardly wait for you to publish The Tiger Unveiled. I already know that I will be able to relate to it.
Patricia – I was delighted to post your article! The way you integrated my video and post with your own experience was simply amazing! I sent a link to it to a friend who has an organization for raising children through empowerment, and she was just blown away! She thinks there may be some kind of link between tigers and incest ( her partner is knowledgeable about dream symbols) and we’ve started a dialogue about that aspect of it! And now to think the article I submitted to the Women’s Empowerment Magazine has the tiger dream as a central theme starts to unfold with a deeper significance! Powerful!
I didn’t see the FB comment – but I’ve learned if you move away from the page before the message shows as posted, it disappears! Twitter – kind of odd with how they do things! But your post went out to my followers, and I’ve got a goodly number of them, so we have it passed along pretty widely!
That’s so funny – I can’t believe we hadn’t talked about Minute to Freedom! Yes, those messages are pretty amazing! The first book will set the stage for the rest of the books I will write. Have you found my website? http://www.danlhays.com – it describes the book cycle I’ve envisioned. “The Tiger Unveiled” will be the third book – I have it fleshed out but not written. First I will finish “And Then I Stop” about the crazy grandma messages! Yes, there’s a connection – oh that’s for sure!
Dan
I had hoped to be able to sit down and start listening to your Minute To Freedom dialogues by now but this week has turned out to be really busy for me.
I would be interested to hear what your friend’s husband says about Tigers in dreams. I think that in one of my past lives, I was a young India boy and raised a Tiger as a pet. I just have this really strong image of that in my mind of the boy working with a full-grown Tiger.
Yes, I found the page when I was writing my article that showed the progression of your books being published. I haven’t taken the time yet to order your 1st book but I will in the next few days.
Really interesting – the possible connection between Tigers and incest. I would love to hear if you find out anything else about that.
Shen – I’ll let you know if the woman who knows dream interpretations comes up with any additional depth perception on the tiger! She and her work partner have really embraced this whole line of talk, and I should hear from them soon! 🙂 I never saw it, but a friend of mine when he read the posts we’re looking at wondered immediately about tigers and incest! There’s something there!
hi dan! wow. ok. i almost need a minute here. shen told me about your post when she was also talking about tigers. i didn’t read your post then. now patricia talked about it. so many times i thought i’d come over here and read your post. finally, i started reading patricia’s this morning and she instructed her reader to
go now and read dan’s post. and watch your tiger video.
so finally i did.
and low and behold (no big shock) i could really relate!
surely some part of me was avoiding this on purpose 🙂
i had a very, very similar dream after a traumatic experience i had when i was in my early twenties. except in my dream, i was housesitting, and instead of a tiger, it was a huge black panther. and it raised up to kill me, and i put my arms up and held it’s giant arms back with my hands. and i could feel how strong it was and how there was no way i could overpower it. and i looked in it’s eyes and thought to it “i know you could kill me if you wanted to, but i’m going to resist you anyway, with all my might.” and it was as though the panther accepted what i was saying and somehow replied, ok fine, i’ll leave you alone for now. and walked away and sat down.
i always wondered what this dream meant. if the panther was the violence i saw in the world around me. or fear. or men.
but i hadn’t thought of the possibility of it being about my own rage.
and powerlessness. i’ll have to think about that one…
thank you very much, dan. for sharing your story. your journey. and reaching out to the world to tell what you have learned.
wishing you well~
Katie – I know what you mean about “avoiding this on purpose” – sometimes I know something is going to hit really close to home, and I have to work up to the place where I’m ready to look at it! That is extraordinary that you had a panther dream that is so similar to our tiger dreams! Thank you for sharing that with me! Yes, I can see how the panther is the threat of violence! Amazing how you backed the tiger down!
Rage, for me, is not about feeling powerful anyway – I have come to learn it’s about shame combined with fear or terror – very powerless place, that I would try to lash out to avoid feeling! I do think we’re all on to something that will continue to be very revealing to us! There’s a synergy about our similar experiences that is pretty incredible!
Warmly,
Dan
Shen and Katie both have left comments on my article that you might be interested in gong and reading Dan. They were both very insightful for me.
As I told Katie on my blog, I have also had a black panther dream a few years ago. I remember having two huge, beautiful black panthers walk up to me and telepathically tell me that they were with me for protection and strength. Looking into their eyes and walking with them was a really beautiful experience. I carried the feelings of that experience around with me for days afterwards. I felt powerful and strong as a result of the dream. I had no fear of these panthers at all. They were huge, standing higher than my waist and I am 5 feet 5 1/2 inches tall. The blackness of their coats was incredible.
I see black differently than most people since an experience with what Indians (India not American) call Krishna energy which is black in color. I see a richness and depth to black, a fullness that isn’t present in most colors. Black is the inclusion of all colors. I love the color black. I always have. As a child, I wasn’t afraid of the blackness of night. I loved it and felt alive in the night until some adult taught me to fear what was in the night. Most of my incest experiences happened in the night.
Patricia – I just went and read the comments by Shen and Katie on your blog, and I’ll hop over there and post my thoughts in a minute. It is extraordinary the synergy that this whole discussion has taken on for us! Now you say you had a black panther dream like Katie’s – well, the commonality of the black panther, but yours was totally different, in that the panthers were for protection and strength, and a positive force! Incredible! The color black and night – yes , I wasn’t afraid of the night until I learned the night was when the bad things happened! (Hence my sleep disorder).
This is an amazing conversational thread, and when my friend gets back with her feedback on the significance of tigers in dreams and her thoughts after reflecting on this all week, I’m sure we’ll have further dimensions to explore! Outstanding!
Warmly,
Dan
Patricia – I tried to post a comment on your blog, but it it wouldn’t go through. Appears there’s some kind of tech hiccup on blogspot right now. Here’s what I was going to add:
Patricia –
I am amazed at the threads we’re exploring here! Rage, tigers, dreams, incest or abuse, all of it! I love that Shen talked about her Lady or the Tiger story on her blog, and how the tiger symbolized her father.
And then Katie adds a similar dream, only with a black panther. WOW – and then talks about the predator concept! How that is something inside us that needs to be confronted! Here is a link to the article I just contributed about my rage/tiger:
http://www.openzine.com/aspx/Zine.aspx?IssueID=7712
The editor wanted to show that some men are actually confronting their anger, rather than just passing it along. I had a therapist one time say she wasn’t afraid of my anger, and of me expressing it in front of her. The thought I had was I wondered how she would feel about that remark if I threw an office chair and smashed her picture window with it! My anger/rage doesn’t come out gently, and I have had to be careful – I absolutely have had to confront it, but careful to do it in appropriate ways!
I am enthralled with this whole conversation, and can’t wait to see how it expands next!
Warmly,
Dan
I think I finally got the comment to go through on your blog post! 🙂
hi dan~ i appreciate you sharing that rage for you feels like a combination of fear and shame. that’s interesting and i can relate to those feelings all too well. rage is a very sad and scary emotion. and i definitely think powerlessness is mixed in there.
i’ve almost never felt powerful in my life. but i’ve certainly felt rage. i think rage is what happens when our anger is suppressed. when we live in silence or only had learned inappropriate and unhealing methods of expressing anger. and when injustice or abuse goes on in our lives over an extended period of time. all those negative emotions get compiled and compressed on top of each other, and if it wasn’t safe to express anything, there was no time or invitation for healing, we just had to keep going, then the rage just deepened. like a volcano where under the surface the lava just grew hotter with each new bad experience piled on top of everything else that still hurt.
i’m so glad that shen, you and patricia have all brought up these issues and that we’re discussing them. i’m grateful for all of you.
~katie
Katie – To everything you said: Yes! I agree totally! There’s a lot of powerlessness in rage! When anger is suppressed and has no outlet, all the negative does just pile up on top of itself! Yes, each new experience piled on top of everything else.
Volcano – now here’s another interesting thread. I became like a volcano, because I grew up within range of a volcano! I have a poem that I wrote and published in our junior high literary magazine from 1964 (which I still have) about a volcano! Her’s a segment of it:
“A fiery, bubbling demon against the sky, the huge volcano. Lava pouring from its lips, like angry words hastily spoken. It seems to be making fun of someone below it. Or trying to shame a person for doing a wrong.”
Of course, when I was 14, that volcano was my Dad. When I read the poem to my sponsor in Adult Children of Alcoholics, I said, “That’s about my Dad!”
He replied, “Is it?” – His point was that the volcano had become me!
Wow – we just keep getting more and more rich threads to this conversation!
Dan
For years I compared myself to a pressure cooker or a volcano waiting to explore. Both can build up pressure until the top explores and releases the pressure through steam with the pressure cooker or lava pouring out through the volcano. I would stuff my feelings of anger constantly feeding the rage inside of me. Then every once in a while, the pressure of holding it in would build so much that I couldn’t hold it in any longer and it would come rushing out all over my husband or my kids. My husband was the most frequent victim for my rage. I realized when I started working with my anger in healthier ways that I could let my anger/rage out with my husband because I knew that he wouldn’t hurt/kill me for getting angry. He was safe. He wasn’t like my dad.
In my childhood, my dad was a rageaholic. He was the only one in our family that was allowed to get angry. His rage always came with a threat of violence. The threat was always there. When I was in 5th or 6th grade, we were all out working on a hay field. My dad, my mom and one of dad’s younger brothers and a black man that they knew was driving the truck that was being loaded with hay. My brother, sister and I were all too small to help but we were brought along rather than being left at home alone. The black man was driving the truck. He got kind of close to my dad who was loading hay. Dad got mad and said the man tried to run over him. Dad pulled out a gun which my uncle and mom were able to get away from him. I was afraid that he would have killed the man if not for my mom and uncle. From then on, if not before that incidence, I was always afraid of my dad’s temper.
Then when I left home and got out from under his control, I became the raging one, until I learned how to control it and release my anger in a healthy manner in Adult Children of Alcoholics and Al-Anon meetings. I had to make amends for a lot to my husband and kids.
Patricia – It seems like the volcano thread has blossomed conversationally like a parallel to the tiger dreams! Yes, the pressure cooker I can definitely relate to! It got so bad for me that for a while in my ’30s it had to be a physical release, and I spent a year working out and training in a boxing gym, to be able to bleed the rage off some! Of course there’s an irony there that the boxing thing with my Dad had me feeling like a failure as a boxer. Yet I had pro boxers tell me I had a lot of talent, so I got to claim something as I was bleeding off the pressure cooker! And I know what you mean about having to go back and make amends for the unwitting targets as that rage came out in safe places!
Yes, the Dad who was allowed to be angry sure fits for me! Amazing story about the hay field! Yes, always afraid of the temper. At one point, I wrote that in our house, we were all in our cells, and the jailer was in the den drunk! The feeling of being trapped in the house was enormous, especially after in the dead of winter I threatened to run away, and my Dad said “Where would you go?” He controlled everything, including money, and I had no choices or chances to escape.
This continues to be such a powerful conversation/exploration, and I’m thrilled that Shen and Katie have joined it with us! Incredible!
Dan
I called my dad a dictator. Like yours, mine controlled everything. When I was 19, I ran away from home because that was the only way that I could get away from my dad. I didn’t have any money. God put a special lady in my path at the junior college that I went to. She took me in for the summer between my 2nd and 3rd year of college. I lived at home and went to a junior college the first 2 years of college. That lady gave me a place to stay rent free and helped me get my first job in a cafeteria in Shreveport, Louisiana. I had already registered and gotten loans to help me with my 3rd year of college at Northwestern State University of Louisiana in Natchitoches, Louisiana. I wrote about this part of my journey and meeting this wonderful lady in June 2007. if you are interested in reading about it the link is here:
http://patriciasingleton.blogspot.com/2007/06/most-influencial-person-2-survival.html
Yes, you know the dictator thing well! I was astounded by your post about Althea and how influential she was for you! Your Dad is a level of crazy I’ve rarely heard about, and she really rescued you from that. She was like a guardian angel! I have this continuingly stronger sense that you have so many parts of your story already written, and like you say, just need to gather the parts! I think it would make a powerful, powerful book for you to share your story! Just the post about Althea has a sense of a well written chapter in a book of similar chapters that comprise an amazing story! Just my reaction! 🙂 You really have a fabulous writing gift, and I am glad that you are giving it room to breathe! 🙂 Keep going!
Of course, the fantastic feedback to this post “Talk of Tigers” provided by Patricia through her own blog deserves special honor here as well! It was an astounding extension of this conversation!
http://patriciasingleton.blogspot.com/2010/03/dreams-about-tigers-what-they-mean-to.html
Dan, thanks for the mention of my article.
Patricia – You’re quite welcome! I suddenly realized your blog post wasn’t mentioned in this conversation. But it needed to be – because it was your article which took the conversation to a whole new level!
I have enjoyed reading all the tiger talk, as well. Dan’s post about tigers came so soon after mine it was really a surprising coincidence. Now to have a third tiger and a couple of panther’s added to the mix is very interesting.
It does seem as if it is all related, somehow.
Shen, I completely agree – this is all a very interesting mix of commonalities, and it sure does feel like it’s all related! As I went back through the comments and the conversational thread, it became astonishing, really. From your first mention of the “Lady and the Tiger” and the symbolism with your father – back in mid February, to these later common tiger and panther dreams – WOW! What a rich discussion this has become!
Dan
Hey, I see that my memory was faulty. You published your tiger post well before I did – I just didn’t find your blog until much later. Your post is from last October, mine is from Feb.
I have a few posts involving tigers at my blog and I am putting a keyword of “tiger” on all of them so I can easily find them.
It has become a rich discussion. It makes it fun to blog when things like this happen.
Shen, I had to go remember how this whole thread unfolded as well – I had remembered your discussion of the “Lady and the Tiger” story, but didn’t connect that you mentioned it mid-February in the comments for this “Talk of Tigers” post! So many things going on, it’s tough to remember it all! 🙂
Absolutely I can see putting keword “tiger” into the places it fits – because it’s taking on such a rich emotional content the more we discuss it! I have been shocked at how far this conversation has evolved, once I went back through the whole thing! Yes, it does make it fun to blog! Somehow I get the sense that we’ve just set the table in terms of this whole tiger connection, and there’s much, much more to come as it unfolds for all of us! Wow!
Here’s some real food for thought. I heard back from the woman who was going to check out “tigers” in dream interpretation. Here’s what she found:
Most of it was pretty obvious…
“dark fear inside man’s soul”
opposite of love/trust…hate/fear
But then under Psychological Explanations the following:
“The tiger in dreams is to inspire fear within man’s soul. Wrath or punishment to be reconciled and forgiven concerning repressed sex”
I’m still digesting this one!
Dan
thanks dan for sharing this information~
my favorite dream interpretation search engine is at : thecuriousdreamer.com
here’s what that site has to say about tigers:
TIGER – Strength in action, assertiveness, aggressiveness, no-nonsense, pro-active activity, taking pre-emptive action to avoid problems before they arise. Bravery and personal strength, integrity, ethics, or conscientiousness. Bravely doing the right thing.
Dreaming of this animal can represent:
•Having too much of one of these qualities, or that you could benefit by being less this way
•Not having enough of one of these qualities, or that you could benefit by being more like this
•Someone or something in your real life with whom you associate one of these qualities (an event, situation, threat, etc.)
Katie –
Wow, isn’t it interesting that the interpretation you added is a completely different spin on the tiger dream from the one my friend found! This is so cool! More to reflect on! 🙂
Thanks,
Dan
Do you think the fact that I was a child when my dreams of tigers started would possibly affect the symbolism of the dream? I would think that the tiger would represent my fears as an incest survivor and of the alcoholics in my life rather than repressed sex. I think I like Katie’s interpretation better.
Patricia –
I’m still sorting this one out! I think that as adults, the interpretation Katie found certainly feels like a better fit.
But as children – the “repressed sex” part has felt for me like the repressed desire of the adult – the tiger – who gave me that legacy of fear! I haven’t yet sensed that the “repressed sex” part was about us as the kids, but from the perspective of the offender! Does that make sense?
Something about “the tiger is to inspire fear in men’s souls” – what did my Dad do but inspire fear in me! It sort of goes back for me to rage being about fear more than about anger. That’s why when Cyrus helped me see the tiger was my “legacy” that I realized it was something I had inherited!
Dan, yes, what you said does make sense to me. The “repressed sex” issues could definitely come from both of my parents, not just my dad.
Cool! I’m glad it makes sense to you! I hadn’t put it together until you asked, but then all of a sudden, the dots connected and I understood that earlier dream interpretation a whole lot better!
I know what you mean about both parents. My Mom emotionally incested me as her “little husband” and it had the same effect as incest with my Dad through the violence – when he owned and violated me!
in one of my tiger posts, I talked about how the tiger seemed to be ME – my strenth. For me, the Lady or the Tiger became the Lady AND the Tiger. I think I need both sides – the part of me that is brave and strong and can face anything and the part that is nurturing and caring supportive. In my mind (and in my posts) I opened both doors and let the two sides come together. No more conundrum!
Shen –
Wow! What a wonderful way to integrate the two parts of that story! It makes perfect sense – the strong, brave tiger, and the nurturing caring lady! Great that you did that and as you say – no more conundrum! Well put!
Shen, I love that you were able to see that you needed both the lady and the tiger. For me, I have two tigers—the one in my dream which could represent fear and/or rage both passed on to me by my parents and the real tigers, God’s creations that, to me, represent beauty, strength, majesty and power which are all positive aspects. I could even say that I have taken on both tigers as part of myself. Thanks Shen. I would never had made the connection without your input about your lady and tiger.
thank you for mentioning emotional incest, dan. that was my circumstance. but i rarely hear people talk about this subject.
i appreciate you sharing your story.
i’m confused by the “repressed sex” idea. in my opinion, my parent was sexually and emotionally inappropriate with me because he was abused growing up. in my understanding, when parents attempt to bond with their children in place of the spouse, it’s because of things like their own unworked out abuse, and arrested development in terms of emotional maturity, so it is difficult for them to have a successful adult relationship. maybe they feel threatened by the demands of an adult relationship, too insecure, unable to relate in a healthy mature way. so they turn to the child because they don’t feel threatened there. they are in control and can try to use the child to fill their own needs. and maybe they subconsciously acting out things done to them.
i don’t like the repressed sex idea. maybe i don’t understand it. but here’s what i think people mean by that. in the case of a father molesting his child, that if the parents don’t have a satisfying sexual relationship (like if the wife rejects the husband or isn’t good at sex), that he’ll turn to the child to get those needs satisfied. but to me, this is a savage view of the man, and sexist too. like he is some animal who just needs to feel satisfied and doesn’t care where he gets it. wife, child, mistress, animal. who cares.
this viewpoint also places a lot of blame on the wife or partner of the molester, like it’s their fault they didn’t keep the molester happy sexually and that’s why the molester turned to the child.
but in my attempts trying to understand the mentality of someone who would turn to their child, there is something more fundamental going on there. i believe a healthy human adult would never turn to their child if they were unsatisfied in their marriage. because they wouldn’t be drawn to their child in that way. it’s a child. undeveloped and innocent.
Katie – Wow! You so clearly and wonderfully describe the whole dynamic of emotional incest – you clarified what I was trying to say! Yes, they turn to the child to replace what they can’t get from the partner! And it is very much a function of arrested development, and something a mature adult would never think of!
Yes, the repressed sex idea is still one I’m trying to grasp in my mind. But I think you do capture the essence of it clearly – turning to the child to get those needs satisfied. Yes, it is a savage view of the man – but men have that side. It’s why I’ve heard men have affairs and are so random sexually – from the cavemen days when they were trying to impregnate as many as possible to keep the tribe alive. And I don’t think that drive has been lost. Women don’t seem to function that same way.
Yes, the fundamental thing is that a healthy adult would never turn to their child. My Mom and Dad were both emotionally incested by one of their parents, and so they passed that along to me. It took me a long time to get that. I went to an incest survivors workshop with a woman I knew from ACA. After a bit I turned to her and said “This is much of the same stuff we’ve been talking about in our meetings.” She smiled and replied, “I was wondering when you would realize that.” It was startling to see the dynamic of incest be so similar to the alcoholic household.
Patricia – I’m glad if I was any help. It was quite a revelation to me, several weeks ago, when I realized that I do not have to reject either the lady or the tiger but could include both of them within me – indeed SHOULD include both of them!
Katie, my understanding of “sexual repression” is different from yours. Repression isn’t about not getting what you need, it’s about not being to accept your own needs and urges. It’s about feeling shameful about the natural desires and fantasies and urges coming up to the point that you deny them – and sometimes this denial leads to physical urges being directed in another way.
Here is the wikipedia definition:
Sexual repression is a state in which a person is prevented from expressing their sexuality. Sexual repression is often associated with feelings of guilt or shame being associated with sexual impulses.
So, the in my view, the sexual repression could be on the part of the child. When a child is molested, there can be both physical pain and physical pleasure, as well as emotional pain and emotional pleasure. It isn’t something the child chooses. Physical touch brings about certain physiological responses. Pain or pleasure are not chosen they are simply felt. Emotional pain is what we most commonly associate with child sexual abuse, for the obvious reason that it is confusing and degrading to a child (or anyone) to use them as a tool for one’s own sexual gratification without considering their needs or wants. The emotional pleasure is harder to understand. For me, I got very little attention from my father. I certainly got very little expression from him of anything about me being good or even okay. It still feels shameful for me to admit that there was a part of me that craved the attention -any attention – and the sense that i had something he wanted. I can hardly write those words….
But again, this is not something I asked for or had control over. It is simply a natural response to the circumstances I was put in, all of which was beyond my control.
So the sexual repression on my part is related to feelings of shame about anything positive I got out of things that I knew, on some level, were not right and should not be happening. It is about guilt and shame when those same urges come up in me because in a way, even though I have and would never direct my urges towards a child or anyone else in a controlling way, the fact that I have those feelings or needs makes me like him.
Does that make sense?
Shen – wow, yes, that makes sense! The sexual repression related to the shame of what had happened! You expressed it so well, it made it all come in to focus for me! I’m going to have to reflect on your post for a while to absorb it all and grasp it! You said a lot and said it clearly!
hi shen, i get what you’re saying completely and feel like i know just what you’re talking about. that’s a very good point. i do see how being sexually abused can lead us to feel sexual repression. i can certainly relate. how the abused child internalizes so much shame. especially related to the complications from being a child who needs and wants the love and affection of the parent, and the mixed messages we get when we are sexually abused, either covertly or overtly. because in some ways we get a form of love, even though it’s a twisted form.
what i was responding to before was more the idea that a parent would molest a child because they were repressed. but i don’t think that is possible. i think there has to be way more going on when a parent can cross that line.
Wow! What an interesting new turn to the conversation. I am glad that I waited to hear the conversation between Shen and Katie on this topic before adding my own thoughts on the topic. The conversations are really stretching my mind in new directions.
All of us who are sexually abused have most definitely experienced emotional incest as well as physical incest. I was put into the position of being the spouse to both of my parents—sexually and emotionally with my dad and emotionally with my mom. I was the confidant of both of them for things that as a child, I had no business knowing about.
I can see how, as an adult, I could be sexually repressed. Both of my parents were sexually repressed. My mom didn’t enjoy sex. With my dad as her sexual partner, I can see why. He believed and shared with me the belief that my mom had a sexual relationship with one of his best friends. I was maybe 15 when he shared that with me. Looking at how shut down my mom was, I doubted it then and now. She was very shut down in every way possible.
My dad would have fit Dan’s description of being sexually repressed because of the shame and guilt that he carried around. When I was 11 years old, I knew that I had outgrown him emotionally and intellectually. I was smarter and more emotionally mature than my dad was. That is part of why he probably had children as sexual partners. He could control us and manipulate us to do what he wanted and to stay silent about the situation.
None of what my dad did to me and my siblings was anybody else’s fault. He was the one to make the choices that he did. My mother made her own choices that supported what was going on and she is only responsible for her own choices, not his.
Yes, like Katie says, I wanted his love and affection. For that reason alone, I never said or did anything to stop him until I was older. A child, sometimes, desperately wants and needs the love of his/her parents. Because of that need for love, the child will accept abuse as his/her due if it means that he/she also feels loved. A child needs love, no matter how twisted it is, to survive. Touch, even inappropriate sexual touch, is desired over no touch at all.
Thanks Dan, Shen and Katie for this continued conversations. We are all thinking and growing because of the feedback from each of us. I hope that others are reading this and benefiting too.
You know, this is like being in a really, really great meeting where you hear so many things you know you’re going to be processing on it for a very long time. I hear all of what each of you has said, and I agree with you, Patricia, that we are all thinking and growing because of this interaction.
Yes, what your dad did to you was his responsibility, and he made that choice. Your mom as well. I have had to separate out my part and realize that as a child, I truly was a victim – I didn’t have the power or the capability to stop what went on. But the other side of that, and way, way back in the conversation where the radio interview blew me away was to realize that – as an adult, I am no longer the victim, and it is my responsibility to work through and move past that abuse. The abuse led to my tiger rage – which was my legacy from childhood, and something I had to figure out how to deal with! I jumped in on a radio interview last week about raising children from a sense of empowerment. I commented that I was raised from the opposite – a lack of empowerment. The interviewer asked if I was raising my children differently. I said it was so bad for me that I made the decision not to have children. I had made that decision before I got to the alcoholic family issues, the rage, all of it. I just knew something wasn’t right, and that somehow, I had to stop the cycle – even if it meant not having children. I believe I did the right thing, but it has been a loss. So I try to be a positive role model for my 5 nieces and nephews. Their Dads were all violent alcoholics who are no longer around. Wow – I just went off on a tangent, but I think it relates!
I do believe this is a phenomenal conversation, and I too hope others are reading this and benefiting too! I have been posting on Twitter about this conversational thread because it is so remarkable!
I believe that this conversation is giving all of us new awarenesses or helping us to figure out old awarenesses that we haven’t finished processing. Without awareness, there is no healing. I have never been in a conversation like this before. It is great.
Wonderfully said, Patricia – ” giving all of us new awarenesses or helping us to figure out old awarenesses that we haven’t finished processing.” That’s it exactly. This is amazing!
Yes, it’s exciting to see the new comments come in, read them, digest, and reread. This also reminds me of conversations I have with others in recovery, Dan. My CoDA meetings are really awesome in that people speak their truths and I hear myself in their words.
It’s what I love best about meetings.
Your story is very powerful and presents a great lesson. May we all become aware of our “tigers” for it is through our awareness that we we remember our true self.
Thank you so much for your kind and powerful words of support! I’m hoping that as we share this lesson others will become aware of their tigers. That was what the radio interviewer pointed to which prompted me to record a video about this whole tiger concept!
Dan
Dan, I happened to catch the Dr. Phil show yesterday and it was on dreams and their interpretation. One of the ladies had a dream about being chased by a Tiger. She was told by a dream expert that cats of any kind represent feminine power. Since she was afraid of the Tiger in her dream. The expert asked if she was afraid of her feminine power. The expert said a big cat like a Tiger would represent big or extreme feminine power. It makes perfect sense to me. Because of the incest, I was extremely afraid of my feminine power and of being a woman because my history told me that women and little girls got abused because of their feminine body which was weaker and not worth as much as a strong man. For years I remember wanting to be a boy, not because of a sexual preference but because in my mind boys/men had the freedom of not being sexually abused. Today I know that isn’t true but I believed it as a girl child.
Wow, what a great perspective to give depth perception to our tiger dreams! Yes, it does make perfect sense – but I didn’t see it until you said it! Yes, I could see how it would figure into your perception of your femininity – for me it was being fearful of being soft and gentle, and getting hurt by the tough Marine. Kind of like prison inmates have to keep the tough shell on the outside, or they get abused. Thanks so much for sharing this Patricia – I’ll have to ponder this whole concept for a while!
Dan, being gentle and soft are usually considered feminine traits. We all have a feminine and masculine side whether we are male or female.
Sure, Patricia. I do agree with having both sides – I was just saying that I was afraid to access the softer, feminine side of myself because the Marine wouldn’t like it. He badgered me away from piano lessons and I tried out for football and wrestling instead. That sort of thing.
I understand that Marine side/tough guy side of a father not wanting to allow his son to study the piano or to write poetry. My dad wasn’t a Marine but he didn’t like me involved with anything that he wasn’t in control of – no after school projects for me or my siblings. As a girl, I wasn’t supposed to cry when I got hurt either. I remember being told, “I’ll give you something to cry about.” And “Don’t you dare cry. It isn’t anything to cry about.”
I too remember “I’ll give you something to cry about.” I wonder if that was a common phrase from somewhere. Yes, I was supposed to “take the pain” as well. Yes, my Dad was really into the “be a man” thing – took me hunting and fishing, all of that. The weirdest part, Patricia, is that while he was alive I never knew my Dad was a writer. After he died I found a short story that he got an A on in college – about some abuse that he witnessed in the Marine Corps. And then when drunk, later acted out on me. He was trying to push me away from my softer, feminine side – and not able to admit his own!
My dad fished, hunted and went camping all year long. Until I was 17, I was forced to participate in all of that with him. By the time I was 16, I hated all 3. My husband does not hunt. He does enjoy occasionally fishing and he and my children love camping. My dad in many ways treated me more like a son, except for the sexual abuse. We weren’t really allowed much softness or gentleness in our lives either.
That is great that you found the short story that your dad wrote in college. It sounds like he was frustrated with his own abilities or lack of accomplishment and took that out on you. That is so very sad.
Wow, Patricia – amazing how he made you do the hunting and fishing thing. I got the same, and that story I wrote The Hunt captures how the whole experience was for me. I don’t hunt any more. Yes, I’m glad to have found the short story. It did feel like he took his frustration out on me when he didn’t pursue his creativity!